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Post by tj on Feb 11, 2021 17:18:33 GMT -8
This version of the band could have been really good. Maybe not had the success that they have had with Arnel - for several reasons - but still really good. Regardless, this is the only video of Message of Love live that I can recall ever seeing. Hard to believe it's been 15 years.
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Post by slucero on Feb 12, 2021 18:50:47 GMT -8
For Journey with Arnel.. it's been the same as it was with SA... touring.
Revelation was successful sales wise.... and that was 13 years ago... it's follow up, Eclipse, sold 20% as much as Revelation... so that's really not a success...
I guess it depends on what "success" is these days for a Classic Rock band.. Pretty sure for Neal its touring.. that's old school working for him. It's what he knows, and they make decent money doing it.
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TNC
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Post by TNC on Feb 13, 2021 5:13:29 GMT -8
For Journey with Arnel.. it's been the same as it was with SA... touring. Revelation was successful sales wise.... and that was 13 years ago... it's follow up, Eclipse, sold 20% as much as Revelation... so that's really not a success... I guess it depends on what "success" is these days for a Classic Rock band.. Pretty sure for Neal its touring.. that's old school working for him. It's what he knows, and they make decent money doing it. Regarding Eclipses non-success..... 20% of Revelation is still prolly 90% more than Red 13 or Generations. I think the band would take that any day. Revelation also had a perfect storm of factors - including DSB mania fueled by The Sopranos etc. As for non-stop touring.... Blame Cain, Smitty and Ross - until recently they were all deadset against new music.
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TNC
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Post by TNC on Feb 13, 2021 5:16:47 GMT -8
This version of the band could have been really good. Maybe not had the success that they have had with Arnel - for several reasons - but still really good. Regardless, this is the only video of Message of Love live that I can recall ever seeing. Hard to believe it's been 15 years. JSS admittedly struggled in the beginning, but then found his bearings. But I know he also had some struggles later on - including when Herbie finally attended a show. I partially wonder if the band just decided they needed an actually full blown tenor. Perry was a freak of nature counter tenor - very tough gig to fill.
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Post by slucero on Feb 13, 2021 9:29:20 GMT -8
For Journey with Arnel.. it's been the same as it was with SA... touring. Revelation was successful sales wise.... and that was 13 years ago... it's follow up, Eclipse, sold 20% as much as Revelation... so that's really not a success... I guess it depends on what "success" is these days for a Classic Rock band.. Pretty sure for Neal its touring.. that's old school working for him. It's what he knows, and they make decent money doing it. Regarding Eclipses non-success..... 20% of Revelation is still prolly 90% more than Red 13 or Generations. I think the band would take that any day. Revelation also had a perfect storm of factors - including DSB mania fueled by The Sopranos etc. As for non-stop touring.... Blame Cain, Smitty and Ross - until recently they were all deadset against new music.
Eclipse sold a little less then Generations.
Arrival sold more than Eclipse and Generations combined.
Any resistance (Cain, Smitty and Ross) is likely due to:
1. The cost of recording and not wanting to incur it. 2. The easier revenue in touring
This is really just a "barrier to revenue" exercise for them now. The more barriers there are the lower the revenue potential.
Without a label fronting the money, the costs for recording and marketing are up front, and shared by the band. Either way, label fronted or self paid, why pre-load already profitable touring revenue with the liability of recording and marketing costs for a record that they know likely won't be profitable? That's just not sound business. Marketing wise, their age limits their appeal and the architecture that brought them commercial success (radio) no longer delivers that. There's no way to create a "buzz" for them or new music from them. The current music marketing architecture caters to the young and Journey has been horribly dysfunctional when it comes to becoming adept at it...
They aren't Taylor Swift, Azzof knew this, and Q Prime (new management) also know this. Azoff was definitely long on the tooth... and Q Prime should be an improvement at least when it comes to packaging bands like Journey and Def Lep together...
Journey's reality us they aren't a young new band, and that limits their potential revenue from new music. Touring is easy consistent money, especially the package tour deals. Post COVID (whenever that happens) they should have a really good touring seasons for awhile.
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TNC
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Post by TNC on Feb 13, 2021 19:25:33 GMT -8
Generations didn't even chart on the Billboard 100. Meanwhile, Eclipse debuted at #13. I'm not totally convinced on these numbers. Even still, Eclipse did better with 200 000 compared to Gen's 160 000 (which is really suspect).
As for recording costs being prohibitive....Cain is putting out Christian albums non-stop recently. So that just doesn't fly. Ross has always been lazy.
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Post by slucero on Feb 13, 2021 21:19:37 GMT -8
Cain owns the studio he records at... so his cost basis is zero.
Neal posted about them sharing costs for this record... and that Narada was producing Arnels vocals.. I learned when I went to audio engineering school back in the 80's that one of the functions of producing is managing recording costs. ....
.... so it's relevant..
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Post by TNC on Feb 14, 2021 6:06:24 GMT -8
Cain owns the studio he records at... so his cost basis is zero. Neal posted about them sharing costs for this record... and that Narada was producing Arnels vocals.. I learned when I went to audio engineering school back in the 80's that one of the functions of producing is managing recording costs. .... .... so it's relevant.. Journey has used Cain's studio, Addiction Sound, several times in the past. So I'm really not sure what you're arguing.... The co-owner of Cain's studio, Dave Kalmusky, basically finished Eclipse when Shirley got busy. He is involved in the new cd as well.
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Post by tj on Feb 14, 2021 14:06:36 GMT -8
Generations didn't even chart on the Billboard 100. Meanwhile, Eclipse debuted at #13. I'm not totally convinced on these numbers. Even still, Eclipse did better with 200 000 compared to Gen's 160 000 (which is really suspect). As for recording costs being prohibitive....Cain is putting out Christian albums non-stop recently. So that just doesn't fly. Ross has always been lazy. Do the Generations numbers include all of the discs given away at the concerts? If not, that skews it completely. Ditto counts for Revelation/Captured, where a 2 disc set gets counted as 2 sales. I am questioning the methodology, it is whatever it is, just that I didn't buy two copies of Revelation and don't know anyone who did, so the real interest in the album is half of what shows in sales data.
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Post by tj on Feb 14, 2021 14:16:21 GMT -8
For Journey with Arnel.. it's been the same as it was with SA... touring. Revelation was successful sales wise.... and that was 13 years ago... it's follow up, Eclipse, sold 20% as much as Revelation... so that's really not a success... I guess it depends on what "success" is these days for a Classic Rock band.. Pretty sure for Neal its touring.. that's old school working for him. It's what he knows, and they make decent money doing it. Arnel and his compelling story, Revelation, DSB blowing up on Glee, Sopranos, etc., all hit at the same time. With JSS, you wouldn't have had the compelling lead singer story, Revelation re-records would not have happened (or been a selling point at all), DSB would still have generated interest - but not the same amount IMO because the Arnel factor gave the band exponential exposure. To me, it's hard to argue that they went the wrong direction with letting JSS go - though they did it in a shit way - and finding a Perry voice clone. They stumbled backwards with their heads up their asses into the Arnel phenomenon. That stroke of luck was like winning the lottery. There was no guarantee that they would have found him. Then they would have ended up with someone else like Steve A - great guy, great singer, did a solid job, but not a compelling story like Arnel's. Hugo, Jeremy, Chalfant, and whoever else that have been proposed over the years could have worked to an extent, but not like Arnel.
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Post by slucero on Feb 14, 2021 14:43:17 GMT -8
Cain owns the studio he records at... so his cost basis is zero. Neal posted about them sharing costs for this record... and that Narada was producing Arnels vocals.. I learned when I went to audio engineering school back in the 80's that one of the functions of producing is managing recording costs. .... .... so it's relevant.. Journey has used Cain's studio, Addiction Sound, several times in the past. So I'm really not sure what you're arguing.... The co-owner of Cain's studio, Dave Kalmusky, basically finished Eclipse when Shirley got busy. He is involved in the new cd as well.
Not arguing anything... you're point was "recording costs being prohibitive"... I never said they were, I said Neal posted about Narada producing Arnels vocals... that means he's managing the cost of mixing them (and likely mixing them also).. so he's billing for those services... the same as he's paid for drumming for Journey. Nothing is "free", and for someone with his skillet as an engineer and producer, it shouldn't be.
Cain owns the Addiction... so his billing cost for anything he records there is zero... there's no out of pocket for him... he can record there as much as he wants to as long as he's not pushing paying clients aside.
All the other band members, if they are sharing costs, get billed by Addiction for any work that is done there (like mixing)...
Kalmusky is also not working for free... he gets paid regardless... either straight up, a percentage of sales, or a combination of both..
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TNC
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Post by TNC on Feb 15, 2021 7:11:59 GMT -8
Journey has used Cain's studio, Addiction Sound, several times in the past. So I'm really not sure what you're arguing.... The co-owner of Cain's studio, Dave Kalmusky, basically finished Eclipse when Shirley got busy. He is involved in the new cd as well.
Not arguing anything... you're point was "recording costs being prohibitive"... I never said they were, I said Neal posted about Narada producing Arnels vocals... that means he's managing the cost of mixing them (and likely mixing them also).. so he's billing for those services... the same as he's paid for drumming for Journey. Nothing is "free", and for someone with his skillet as an engineer and producer, it shouldn't be.
Cain owns the Addiction... so his billing cost for anything he records there is zero... there's no out of pocket for him... he can record there as much as he wants to as long as he's not pushing paying clients aside.
All the other band members, if they are sharing costs, get billed by Addiction for any work that is done there (like mixing)...
Kalmusky is also not working for free... he gets paid regardless... either straight up, a percentage of sales, or a combination of both..
You said: "Any resistance (Cain, Smitty and Ross) is likely due to:1. The cost of recording and not wanting to incur it."Now you're admitting Cain doesn't incur costs because he owns the studio. Well, Narada also owns his own studio. The truth is - in terms of band member compensation, nobody knows anything. The only person seemingly interested in a new album, besides fans, is Neal. I wouldn't be surprised if he's delusional enough to pay for the whole thing. Nobody knows anything.
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Post by slucero on Feb 16, 2021 12:33:28 GMT -8
Not arguing anything... you're point was "recording costs being prohibitive"... I never said they were, I said Neal posted about Narada producing Arnels vocals... that means he's managing the cost of mixing them (and likely mixing them also).. so he's billing for those services... the same as he's paid for drumming for Journey. Nothing is "free", and for someone with his skillet as an engineer and producer, it shouldn't be.
Cain owns the Addiction... so his billing cost for anything he records there is zero... there's no out of pocket for him... he can record there as much as he wants to as long as he's not pushing paying clients aside.
All the other band members, if they are sharing costs, get billed by Addiction for any work that is done there (like mixing)...
Kalmusky is also not working for free... he gets paid regardless... either straight up, a percentage of sales, or a combination of both.. You said: "Any resistance (Cain, Smitty and Ross) is likely due to:1. The cost of recording and not wanting to incur it."Now you're admitting Cain doesn't incur costs because he owns the studio. Well, Narada also owns his own studio. The truth is - in terms of band member compensation, nobody knows anything. The only person seemingly interested in a new album, besides fans, is Neal. I wouldn't be surprised if he's delusional enough to pay for the whole thing. Nobody knows anything. I've known Narada had his own studio for a while now.... but thanks for reminding me....
I know you remember that Cain wasn't interested in doing Eclipse at first either... There's tweets with Neal slamming Cain about new music...
Why would Cain be hesitant? He didn't think it ( a different direction) would sell.... and he wanted to continue with "traditional" Journey music (which Neal had had more than enough of)
Cain was pretty clear in this interview
Here he talks about studio costs...
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TNC
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Post by TNC on Feb 17, 2021 8:29:40 GMT -8
I don't remember this actually.
After the tepid response to Arrival, Cain said he wanted to do only EPs. I remember that.
After the success of Revelation, there seemed to be a quick turn around by the band toward working on a new album for Walmart.
Cain's griping only begun after the album didn't sell as well as Revelation.
In 2011 while promoting Eclipse he was all about it. Quotes from 2011 interviews below -
JC: "Well, after playing these heavy rock festivals, it was obvious that we could use some rock in our repertoire – a little bit more of that European-flavored stuff. Europe is one place you can play new material. The States tend to be more of a “greatest hits” crowd, but here, not as much. I mean, our fans are great, but the majority of the people that come to those shows, I don't know how much they're interested in the new stuff. [Laughs] we play it whether they like it or not.
Europe certainly gives you an opportunity to step up your game. We felt that playing with the heavy rock bands, we certainly could go there, and I think Arnel is the reason. He can pull it off – he's really a fine all-around chameleon rock singer. He can sing the phone book, he's got the power to pull it off, and sing on the big power chords and the walls of guitars that Neal [Schon] comes up with. We needed that part of it, too. We noticed that his voice is really up for the challenge. He's done really well, he's really been an inspiration for all of us."
JC: "It's a raw rock album. It's guitar driven. Neal said early on 'I want to go with this. Will you go with me?' I said, well lyrically it's got to be profound, I don't want to put out any old stuff. If we're going to go in this direction, it's got to be to some mystical place, like Zeppelin did with their music.
Neal came to me with this conceptual idea, the Hindu interpretation of life as an endless circle. So I started doing research on the internet and writing ideas down. And I really liked the concept, you known for a band that sings about hopeful things.
Without being religious, I believe in a universal god, and I like the idea of the endless circle. I've always dabbled in the metaphysical belief. I was meditating and performed yoga and I always noted this wonderful high energy and I wondered how can I trigger this peace of mind and this happiness?
I thought this is something that we should look at, maybe with this album. With the conflict and turmoil that we face every day in our society sometimes it's good to see how you relate to the universe and god.
Neal had some ideas and it encompasses physical, spiritual and metaphysical ideas which go really deep, without being too 'heavy' about it.
I was able to craft some very sensual lyrics. Neal allowed me to write these lyrics. He's a Buddhist, he's a spiritual man, he likes the idea of eternal peace - that conflicts can be resolved. I said this is what we should be singing about, not about chasing women around.
When we finished these songs and we learned them and started singing them in the studio it was like 'Oh, I was right!' This was something different.
But to me it's an album that is not a one-listen record. You need to listen through it a few times. It's very complex musically, it has many layers to it and there's something different every time you listen to it to pick up on."
But again, Cain he owns the studio and he produces new (bad) Christian solo music in it all the time. Do you think those players and engineers are all working for free? None of this adds up.
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Post by tj on Feb 17, 2021 11:02:41 GMT -8
You said: "Any resistance (Cain, Smitty and Ross) is likely due to:1. The cost of recording and not wanting to incur it."Now you're admitting Cain doesn't incur costs because he owns the studio. Well, Narada also owns his own studio. The truth is - in terms of band member compensation, nobody knows anything. The only person seemingly interested in a new album, besides fans, is Neal. I wouldn't be surprised if he's delusional enough to pay for the whole thing. Nobody knows anything. I've known Narada had his own studio for a while now.... but thanks for reminding me....
I know you remember that Cain wasn't interested in doing Eclipse at first either... There's tweets with Neal slamming Cain about new music...
Why would Cain be hesitant? He didn't think it ( a different direction) would sell.... and he wanted to continue with "traditional" Journey music (which Neal had had more than enough of)
Cain was pretty clear in this interview
Here he talks about studio costs... If anyone in the band should have been worried about the costs of going through a divorce it should be Neal. 😕
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