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Post by kcjourneyfan01 on Jul 30, 2020 14:43:34 GMT -8
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Post by slucero on Jul 30, 2020 18:30:26 GMT -8
Perry prolly paid him not to release anything...
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Post by tj on Jul 31, 2020 18:19:48 GMT -8
I can't imagine how much of a pain it would be to have to get non-disclosure agreements, ownership and distribution agreements etc., with someone just to make demos. "Hey I would love to sit around a piano and make some demos of these songs we wrote, but first I am going to need you to sign this binder full of documents". Kind of takes away from the "we're in it for the music" feel.
My guess is that Perry was still contracted to Columbo/Sony at the time, so they would have had a say in it as well if it got out. At that point, and obviously still even now people try to make money off of the Journey/Perry legacy. What a pain in the butt.
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Post by slucero on Jul 31, 2020 21:29:30 GMT -8
I can't imagine how much of a pain it would be to have to get non-disclosure agreements, ownership and distribution agreements etc., with someone just to make demos. "Hey I would love to sit around a piano and make some demos of these songs we wrote, but first I am going to need you to sign this binder full of documents". Kind of takes away from the "we're in it for the music" feel. My guess is that Perry was still contracted to Columbo/Sony at the time, so they would have had a say in it as well if it got out. At that point, and obviously still even now people try to make money off of the Journey/Perry legacy. What a pain in the butt.
Actually its fairly easy. No binder of docs to sign. Most writing sessions are scheduled and recorded... so there's a record of the participants and work-product. If the writers create a complete song, they typically default even split or negotiate ownership share when they finish, unless there is pre-arranged agreement in place, or one of more of the participants are simply working for a fee.
It's really not that complicated.
This case was pretty cut and dried. Perry is a co-writer. Neither can release anything without the others consent. Perry refuse consent. The other writer had no case.
My guess is Perry prolly paid him to go away... and took full ownership of the demos in exchange.
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Post by tj on Jul 31, 2020 22:53:36 GMT -8
I can't imagine how much of a pain it would be to have to get non-disclosure agreements, ownership and distribution agreements etc., with someone just to make demos. "Hey I would love to sit around a piano and make some demos of these songs we wrote, but first I am going to need you to sign this binder full of documents". Kind of takes away from the "we're in it for the music" feel. My guess is that Perry was still contracted to Columbo/Sony at the time, so they would have had a say in it as well if it got out. At that point, and obviously still even now people try to make money off of the Journey/Perry legacy. What a pain in the butt. Actually its fairly easy. No binder of docs to sign. Most writing sessions are scheduled and recorded... so there's a record of the participants and work-product. If the writers create a complete song, they typically default even split or negotiate ownership share when they finish, unless there is pre-arranged agreement in place, or one of more of the participants are simply working for a fee. It's really not that complicated.
This case was pretty cut and dried. Perry is a co-writer. Neither can release anything without the others consent. Perry refuse consent. The other writer had no case. My guess is Perry prolly paid him to go away... and took full ownership of the demos in exchange.
That's interesting to know. How long has that process been going on? It seems pretty simple, and I suppose if everyone is aware and goes in with the same understanding then it works. So, if I co-write something, and I think it is awesome, my record label thinks it's awesome but you as my co-writer don't want it released, my only options are to take you to court and/or try to buy you into releasing it? Is that the case only on the demo recordings or on the actual music/lyrics as well? My uncle wrote and recorded some country music songs on an idependent lable back in the early 1970's. I found the 45's, still unplayed, when I was cleaning out my grandparent's house several years ago. He was the only listed writer. If he ever made any money from them, I could't tell. He went on to be a county sheriff and my family called him the "Singing Sheriff" because he would go out and play old Hank Thompson era songs at county festivals.
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Post by slucero on Aug 1, 2020 8:24:20 GMT -8
Actually its fairly easy. No binder of docs to sign. Most writing sessions are scheduled and recorded... so there's a record of the participants and work-product. If the writers create a complete song, they typically default even split or negotiate ownership share when they finish, unless there is pre-arranged agreement in place, or one of more of the participants are simply working for a fee. It's really not that complicated.
This case was pretty cut and dried. Perry is a co-writer. Neither can release anything without the others consent. Perry refuse consent. The other writer had no case. My guess is Perry prolly paid him to go away... and took full ownership of the demos in exchange.
That's interesting to know. How long has that process been going on? It seems pretty simple, and I suppose if everyone is aware and goes in with the same understanding then it works. So, if I co-write something, and I think it is awesome, my record label thinks it's awesome but you as my co-writer don't want it released, my only options are to take you to court and/or try to buy you into releasing it? Is that the case only on the demo recordings or on the actual music/lyrics as well? My uncle wrote and recorded some country music songs on an idependent lable back in the early 1970's. I found the 45's, still unplayed, when I was cleaning out my grandparent's house several years ago. He was the only listed writer. If he ever made any money from them, I could't tell. He went on to be a county sheriff and my family called him the "Singing Sheriff" because he would go out and play old Hank Thompson era songs at county festivals.
This is how Nashville has worked for decades... and Nashville is a songwriters town....
If you are on a label, you've likely:
1 - signed your publishing rights to the label for the duration of your contract, or
2 - assigned publishing rights to the label if you are with a publishing co different than the label ...
... so your say in releasing vs not is somewhat limited. They do have a say. You also would be writing with other writers who likely are signed to their own publishing company.
Normally if a record label is behind a song... all the co-writers are going to support it's release. That's income for all involved.
It's very business oriented... and much more streamlined and writer friendly now.
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Post by tj on Aug 2, 2020 18:31:22 GMT -8
That's interesting to know. How long has that process been going on? It seems pretty simple, and I suppose if everyone is aware and goes in with the same understanding then it works. So, if I co-write something, and I think it is awesome, my record label thinks it's awesome but you as my co-writer don't want it released, my only options are to take you to court and/or try to buy you into releasing it? Is that the case only on the demo recordings or on the actual music/lyrics as well? My uncle wrote and recorded some country music songs on an idependent lable back in the early 1970's. I found the 45's, still unplayed, when I was cleaning out my grandparent's house several years ago. He was the only listed writer. If he ever made any money from them, I could't tell. He went on to be a county sheriff and my family called him the "Singing Sheriff" because he would go out and play old Hank Thompson era songs at county festivals. This is how Nashville has worked for decades... and Nashville is a songwriters town.... If you are on a label, you've likely: 1 - signed your publishing rights to the label for the duration of your contract, or
2 - assigned publishing rights to the label if you are with a publishing co different than the label ...
... so your say in releasing vs not is somewhat limited. They do have a say. You also would be writing with other writers who likely are signed to their own publishing company.
Normally if a record label is behind a song... all the co-writers are going to support it's release. That's income for all involved.
It's very business oriented... and much more streamlined and writer friendly now.
So this got me thinking a little bit today while I was out on the mower. What rights do producers have in recording? Anything? Are they paid a % of sales, a straight fee, combination of both? Diito guest/studion musicians? I think about guys like Paich and Lukather from Toto who have played on thousands of albums, and some of the biggest of all time. Did they get a $1500 check for their work on Thriller or .025% of sales or something else. Same with Quincy Jones, Kevin Shirley, Mutt Lange, et. al. I would want a fee plus % if I could get it. That way if it is clunker, which most albums are in terms of sales anymore - perhaps most always were as a percentage of all albums ever released too, I don't know - at lest you are getting paid for your time and effort. But without a % of the sales, even getting paid $25,000 to pay on Thriller would be steal for the record company (or whoever is getting the rest of the money). And how is the money from sales distributed? I know that Don Henley has complained for decades about how the Eagles got shafted on all of their albums until Hell Freezes Over. Where did that money go?
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Post by slucero on Aug 2, 2020 18:48:08 GMT -8
In demand producers (Quincy Jones, Kevin Shirley, Mutt) usually will get a fee/expenses and/or points (% of sales) ... less in-demand producers likely get points or just a fee..
Studio guys get scale... in demand guys like Luke get more than scale...
Musicians get paid after everything else is paid for and everyone else is paid... they are always last.
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Post by tj on Aug 3, 2020 2:47:52 GMT -8
In demand producers (Quincy Jones, Kevin Shirley, Mutt) usually will get a fee/expenses and/or points (% of sales) ... less in-demand producers likely get points or just a fee.. Studio guys get scale... in demand guys like Luke get more than scale... Musicians get paid after everything else is paid for and everyone else is paid... they are always last. So, if you are producing a classic rock group's new album (Journey, Fleetwood Mac, etc.) it seems like a fee might be the better approach as a producer, where if you producing a current pop star might be better for the points. I guess a combination is the best scenario. I wonder what the fee/points for someone like David Foster are these days?
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Post by slucero on Aug 3, 2020 9:31:34 GMT -8
In demand producers back then (late 70's - early 80s) pretty much didn't have to negotiate their fee, which used to be somewhere between 3 to 5 points... of course, that was when albums sold 5 - 10 million...
Albums haven't sold for decades... it's really a singles market... and streaming (Spotify) has made most music essentially freely available... so I'm sure the fee structure is pretty different as a result...
This is why we see a lot of classic rock bands self producing now... one - the revenue structure is so different, and two - it's much smaller.
An act with a catalog that gets lots of streams like Journey or Taylor Swift can still make income... but touring has really been the only revenue stream for the industry and acts for the last 10 plus years...
This is the main reason I think Perry will never tour again... besides his age and the wear on his voice... he's on Fantasy Records... they're a small label... and likely not going to front money for a 10 date tour.... there's no money in that. Perry would have to pay for it out of his own pocket.
He's not doing that....
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Post by tj on Aug 3, 2020 13:27:26 GMT -8
In demand producers back then (late 70's - early 80s) pretty much didn't have to negotiate their fee, which used to be somewhere between 3 to 5 points... of course, that was when albums sold 5 - 10 million... Albums haven't sold for decades... it's really a singles market... and streaming (Spotify) has made most music essentially freely available... so I'm sure the fee structure is pretty different as a result... This is why we see a lot of classic rock bands self producing now... one - the revenue structure is so different, and two - it's much smaller.
An act with a catalog that gets lots of streams like Journey or Taylor Swift can still make income... but touring has really been the only revenue stream for the industry and acts for the last 10 plus years...
This is the main reason I think Perry will never tour again... besides his age and the wear on his voice... he's on Fantasy Records... they're a small label... and likely not going to front money for a 10 date tour.... there's no money in that. Perry would have to pay for it out of his own pocket. He's not doing that....
That makes a lot of since. A high risk of downside for Perry, not much upside at his age as a solo artist, even if his voice is pristine and can hold up for a couple hours a night, which we don't know. And it's not just about his age, I guess, as much as it is he's been out of the market for such a long time and really only had one hit solo album almost 40 years ago. Not like there is a huge SP catalog that people are dying to hear live, especially when they can get Arnel to do it on a much grander (not better) scale with Journey. I suppose it would have been like a 1945 act trying to hit the road in 1985 when Journey was at their peak, but in an even way much more difficult market now than in 85.
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